Posts by Joe Grundy

70

How Far Apart Were Your Legs?

by Joe Grundy in

several threads on here about the excellent bbc r4 programme this week ('the report') focussing on rape and abuse in barry, south wales, jws.

fat pervert mark sewell later got 14 years and i hope he is enjoying every minute of it.. the courageous ladies who spoke on the programme were articulate, reasonable and made a tremendous impression.. the quote in the thread title made an impression on me, and i hope, on all listeners.. forget religious, theological, 'biblical' issues and cut to the basics.

a rape victim was asked to demonstrate - to demonstrate, ffs - to three unqualified (middle-aged at least, presumably) men just how far her legs were apart when she was raped.. i have rarely heard anything so outrageous, and i used to investigate rape and abuse in my profession.

Joe Grundy

"

she was d/f'd in her late teens for sexual misconduct. apparently the elders made her describe--in graphic detail---her private behaviour.

this cannot be right--surely?"

No. It is absolutely wrong. It is yet more abuse.

I can only wonder why they do this - but I think I know the answer. It is similar to sex offenders on remand in prison. They have the right (in many jurisdictions) to have the evidence prosecution to peruse. This will include graphic and detailed statements from victims describing the acts in great detail. Offenders can jerk off to these, of course, but can also sell the papers on to others to jerk off over.

Again, sorry for reality intruding here, but this is real life.

70

How Far Apart Were Your Legs?

by Joe Grundy in

several threads on here about the excellent bbc r4 programme this week ('the report') focussing on rape and abuse in barry, south wales, jws.

fat pervert mark sewell later got 14 years and i hope he is enjoying every minute of it.. the courageous ladies who spoke on the programme were articulate, reasonable and made a tremendous impression.. the quote in the thread title made an impression on me, and i hope, on all listeners.. forget religious, theological, 'biblical' issues and cut to the basics.

a rape victim was asked to demonstrate - to demonstrate, ffs - to three unqualified (middle-aged at least, presumably) men just how far her legs were apart when she was raped.. i have rarely heard anything so outrageous, and i used to investigate rape and abuse in my profession.

Joe Grundy

konceptual99

Thank you for that extract.

Then I ask my question again in simple terms (that's what detectives do, until it's answered).

WTF did elders on the JC ask this lady to demonstrate how far her legs were apart?

(And do they know, for example, what position a woman's legs need to be in before penile penetration is feasible? Sorry to bring this back to real life but that can be the only justification (?) for such a question).

70

How Far Apart Were Your Legs?

by Joe Grundy in

several threads on here about the excellent bbc r4 programme this week ('the report') focussing on rape and abuse in barry, south wales, jws.

fat pervert mark sewell later got 14 years and i hope he is enjoying every minute of it.. the courageous ladies who spoke on the programme were articulate, reasonable and made a tremendous impression.. the quote in the thread title made an impression on me, and i hope, on all listeners.. forget religious, theological, 'biblical' issues and cut to the basics.

a rape victim was asked to demonstrate - to demonstrate, ffs - to three unqualified (middle-aged at least, presumably) men just how far her legs were apart when she was raped.. i have rarely heard anything so outrageous, and i used to investigate rape and abuse in my profession.

Joe Grundy

I enjoy debates about JW history, was practices, biblical accuracy, etc., and these are in an academic way.

But this issue is completely different. I have no desire to tell 'war stories' but sometimes a dose of reality, bringing things back to 'real life' is necessary because generally (thankfully) the 'general public' is protected from this. What is reported, what is prevented as evidence in court cases, is usually a farirly sanitised version. The comments the young lady made brought a lot of stuff home to me.

If you want to maintain your innocence, scroll on by from here......

When a professional investigates rape or abuse they will cover as much detail as possible. Partly for legal reasons (how far in does something have to be before it is legally 'penetration'? Labia majora or labia minora?). If a male perpetrator, was he circumcised (explain this to a child). Peculiar or particular behaviour? ('Similar fact' evidence, corroboration). And so on.

These are, ladies and gentlemen, the unpleasant and raw facts of dealing with this sort of stuff. A particularly unpleasant man I dealt with liked to use a cucumber anally on his 13 year old stepdaughter while raping her vaginally. It was relevant because he did the same on other rape victims.

This is life as it happens, and I wish it wasn't. (Imagine going home and your wife asks what you did in work today).

But to think that JW elders are going down this route ...

We had support systems available for the victims (poor as they sometimes were).

And for those who find it hard to think outside the bubble of their comfortable lives I offer this as an exercise. When you go home, ask your wife/partner to recall the last time you had sex. Now invite three neighbours (men) round and ask her to demonstrate the position and explain in detail who put what where.

That's the reality of investigating this stuff.

Barry, south Wales, is a couple of hours drive. I'm tempted to visit their KH.

70

How Far Apart Were Your Legs?

by Joe Grundy in

several threads on here about the excellent bbc r4 programme this week ('the report') focussing on rape and abuse in barry, south wales, jws.

fat pervert mark sewell later got 14 years and i hope he is enjoying every minute of it.. the courageous ladies who spoke on the programme were articulate, reasonable and made a tremendous impression.. the quote in the thread title made an impression on me, and i hope, on all listeners.. forget religious, theological, 'biblical' issues and cut to the basics.

a rape victim was asked to demonstrate - to demonstrate, ffs - to three unqualified (middle-aged at least, presumably) men just how far her legs were apart when she was raped.. i have rarely heard anything so outrageous, and i used to investigate rape and abuse in my profession.

Joe Grundy

PS: Feel uncomfortable about the thread title? Good. Now think about how you would feel if you were the victim. Oh, and as I understand it a woman can't wear trousers in front of a JC, can she?

70

How Far Apart Were Your Legs?

by Joe Grundy in

several threads on here about the excellent bbc r4 programme this week ('the report') focussing on rape and abuse in barry, south wales, jws.

fat pervert mark sewell later got 14 years and i hope he is enjoying every minute of it.. the courageous ladies who spoke on the programme were articulate, reasonable and made a tremendous impression.. the quote in the thread title made an impression on me, and i hope, on all listeners.. forget religious, theological, 'biblical' issues and cut to the basics.

a rape victim was asked to demonstrate - to demonstrate, ffs - to three unqualified (middle-aged at least, presumably) men just how far her legs were apart when she was raped.. i have rarely heard anything so outrageous, and i used to investigate rape and abuse in my profession.

Joe Grundy

Several threads on here about the excellent BBC R4 programme this week ('The Report') focussing on rape and abuse in Barry, South Wales, JWs. Fat pervert Mark Sewell later got 14 years and I hope he is enjoying every minute of it.

The courageous ladies who spoke on the programme were articulate, reasonable and made a tremendous impression.

The quote in the thread title made an impression on me, and I hope, on all listeners.

Forget religious, theological, 'biblical' issues and cut to the basics. A rape victim was asked to demonstrate - TO DEMONSTRATE, FFS - to three unqualified (middle-aged at least, presumably) men just how far her legs were apart when she was raped.

I have rarely heard anything so outrageous, and I used to investigate rape and abuse in my profession.

It may be possible to identify who the elders on the JC were. (Any suggestions gratefully received). They should be named and shamed as individuals. After all, if they felt they were acting on the instructions of their god, they'd be happy to justify it, right? And would be happy to explain to people they meet in D2D or on the carts why they did this. And to justify to their wives and families why this was necessary and commanded by their god?

My main point is this (sorry if I repeat myself). Forget JWs, theological stuff, reduce it to basics. How can this possibly have happened?

(Declaration of interest: I was never a JW. My daughter was raped at 17.)

39

Child Abuse - "I don't care. I haven't got any children".

by cofty in

earlier this week i bumped into a couple of jws who i recognised from the cult cart.

a few months ago i had a long conversation with him one of them and found him to be quite friendly.

he is new to the area in the years since i left.. this time he was very defensive and said he wasn't allowed to talk to me.

Joe Grundy

Difficult to find the words to describe this comment. Bet he felt proud of himself afterwards (not). And would feel even prouder if his non JW associates (e.g. in the workplace) heard him say it.

Seems to me that when JWs know they have nothing to say they fall back on infantile comments.

50

The Report - BBC Radio 4 about Jehovah's Witnesses and Child Sexual Abuse can now be heard

by AndersonsInfo in

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0612hjs.

the report about child abuse and jehovah's witnesses is now live.. jehovah's witnesses handle child abuse cases.

jehovah's witnesses and child sexual abuse, the report - bbc radio 4 .

Joe Grundy

"Perhaps this will inspire Britain to take the first step towards examining the 'charity' status of the WTBTS!"

This is already under way with the Charity Commission. WTBTS has recently lost a tribunal case and has been ordered to hand over documents.

32

BBC radio Prog " The Report" this week on JW Child Abuse

by Phizzy in

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0612hjs.

to be broadcast at 20.00 hrs british summer time this thursday, available on bbc i-player shortly after broadcast..

Joe Grundy

It was very well done, I think. Balanced and honest. Well done BBC!

25

New BBC article on JW abuse

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

is religion doing enough to root out abuse?.

he would go upstairs, on the premise that he was saying a prayer with his niece, then sexually abuse her.

mark sewell was sentenced to 14 years in prisonafterwards, the elders told her that as it was only her account against that of sewell, nothing more could be done.

Joe Grundy

FreeGirl2006:

" I know, as I was one of them"

I am sorry. If the law enforcement authorities had known more/been better, that shouldn't have happened.

I apologise for my individual failings, and for those of the system which let you down. I could have done more to find out about this evil cult, and the others, and to try to put things right. Sorry. Don't think that I don't think about this, bear this burden, every day.

25

New BBC article on JW abuse

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

is religion doing enough to root out abuse?.

he would go upstairs, on the premise that he was saying a prayer with his niece, then sexually abuse her.

mark sewell was sentenced to 14 years in prisonafterwards, the elders told her that as it was only her account against that of sewell, nothing more could be done.

Joe Grundy

And a word (or more) about 'two witnesses'.

In the UK - and in many other jurisdictions, I believe - this principle continues in the form of seeking corroboration. The problem is that ignorant, arrogant, untrained, unprofessional JW overlords do not understand the concept and certainly do not wish to apply it even if they were capable of doing so. I must reiterate my view most strongly that JW heirarchy must immediately stand aside from any investigation of abuse and that by not doing so they risk causing further harm to victims, fouling up a prosection and further damage. Their god has no place in this process.

But a 'second witness' legally could include:

- 'Early complaint'

- Forensic evidence (DNA deposits, etc.)

- Evidence that the perpetrator was at the locus at the time

- Interview/admissions/lies from suspect

- Physical fact evidence (e.g victim describes birthmark on perpetrator)

- 'Similar fact' in serial cases (e.g. perpetrator had a fetish for certain acts/words)

- Multiple independent complaints from victims

It can readily be seen that JW elders etc. not only don't have the training/expertise to look at these aspects, it would be horrendous if they tried to do so.

I never was a JW and I try not to be over-critical of all elders and leaders. But sadly, all of the ones I have met and engaged in conversation have proved to be mildly deceptive at best and outright liars at worst.

I stand by my previous assertion on posts on this topic here. If while I was working in this field I had come across elders interfering in abuse investigations (even by following the 'flock' book) I would have arrested them for obstruction/attempting to pervert the course of justice.